Blog Comments

  1. Klik's Avatar
    We've discussed the changes much more thoroughly in our members-only forums, which, should you pass your trial, will be available to you. We can, however, assure you we plan to raid 20-player mythics.
  2. Aerro's Avatar
    I happened to come across this blog post, as I've been frequenting the forums I'm able to see and it made me laugh (but in a good way).

    (I don't LIKE that many people and finding 10 more that I like let alone tolerate is a nightmare)
    My old GM said the same exact thing, which is what got me. I was interested on the stance of what Vox thought of the looming massive change so this definitely helped me get some idea!
  3. Dougall's Avatar
    Any time spent gaming with Kull is priceless if you ask me! <3 <3 <3
  4. Kulldam's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vikrum
    Well that post went flying over my head even though I did read it all. What I am sure of is that post is entirely too well thought out/intelligent to be lost on page 37 of a feedback thread.

    Who knows though. Hopefully the PTB will end up seeing it somehow.

    Nice work Kull.
    Heh thanks Vik. Whether due to my posts or not, all these issues were partially if not fully addressed, which is very cool. The post has been updated with the info:

    So far healing Monks seem like a fresh, fun role to play and I'm looking forward to trying it in more difficult content. ><
  5. Vikrum's Avatar
    Well that post went flying over my head even though I did read it all. What I am sure of is that post is entirely too well thought out/intelligent to be lost on page 37 of a feedback thread.

    Who knows though. Hopefully the PTB will end up seeing it somehow.

    Nice work Kull.
  6. Vikrum's Avatar
    Here is a Blue response to you:

    We have not in fact made the statement that "Discovery and inventiveness in raiding is bad” with the introduction of the Dungeon Journal. We have simply said, "Here are the tools to be successful. Go forth and conquer." We have in no way said "how" to do it nor is that our intention for this feature. The ability to play your character within a team of other people is all up to you and your skills. We're just trying to make it more possible to be successful within the game with information that lends itself to aiding success.

    We want the discovery and challenge to come into play as a result of actually facing the mechanics versus simply being beaten by the mechanics of the game to begin with to even start working on a strategy to defeat the encounter (which is what many top raiding guilds end up doing.) It's very difficult for anyone to claim that discovery is a large portion of the game when we live in a world of datamining, PTR videos, boss kill addons, and extensive documentation of everything by a very savvy and experienced gaming community.

    We want to provide a common language to communicate with as well. What exists now is something that has evolved over time in an organic way, but not everyone is speaking the same "language". This way, you can call the "big blue thing" by its name rather than resorting to trying to describe it or make up a new name for it.

    We know that players already go out to outside sources to look for information. On some occasions, this information may even have misinterpretations of the boss abilities and cause some frustration for those who are attempting to kill the mob based on that information. We're simply making what you're facing a bit clearer where it needs to be made clear. This isn’t the fault of those documenting these things. From our end, not all abilities that bosses use are as clear as we could have made them or should make them be.

    It's expected that the top-end guilds that like to go for the first kill/s will still be able to accomplish this with or without the Dungeon Journal existing. We have no fear that they will suddenly be overrun and lose their place simply because everyone is starting with the same information.

    That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.

    If all else, if you still want to take on encounters without the use of the Dungeon Journal, you can. Just don't open it. What you don’t know, will probably kill/wipe you.
  7. Kainhighwind's Avatar
    After reading the Journal entry for Ragnaros in the PTR build, I had this same appalled and disgusted reaction. The fact that they went into overwhelming detail of how to handle all FOUR phases of the fight, it blew my mind. I 100% agree that this Dungeon Journal takes away one of the greatest things of progression raiding: the strategy and data mining step. Personally, I like the trial and error part of learning a fight, in particular that moment when you realize "Holy Crap, this just might work!".

    I think the Journal could have some potential if it would have more limited information than the current design. If it were a place to see health values of each add/mob in a fight, and simply list of all the tooltips, just so one can read them outside the panic of being mid fight, it would be a handy tool. Telling you everything about a fight is a bit much.

    So let us hope that the stars align and someone from Blizzard reads this and take it to heart.
  8. Vikrum's Avatar
    Very well stated Kull. You are so great at analyzing things from all angles. When I first started reading this I really felt like you were complaining just to complain. I have never been a data miner; but I have always been the guy who scours the internet looking for videos, forum posts, etc to glean any insight before actually stepping foot into an encounter.

    However after reading your blog in it's entirety I truly did not realize that such little information was put out there from the get go. As you eluded to many times I feel the tooltip information being anonymous was the key here.

    Anyone with a signifigant amount of WoW raiding, can take the Dungeon Journal information and as you did; put together a strategy that will be extremely close to the strategy used when you get your first kill on a boss.

    So yeah when I saw the dungeon journal I didn't think about the implications to the raiding in WoW in general or how it effects me as a semi hardcore raider. I thought to myself they are just nicely packaging information we already have into a neat UI feature. But sadly it looks as if WoW does in fact desire to keep dumbing down the game to a simple "Simon Says" execution test.

    It kind of reminds me of how FF11 has changed over the years. A couple of years ago it was without a doubt the most challenging/time investing MMO out there. But now having a friend jsut recently leave FF11 after years of play to come play WoW I hear that in some aspects FF11 is now in fact extremely more forgiving than WoW and that leveling can be done much faster than what it can be done in WoW.

    What does that have to do with this? Square clearly intended for 11 to go away and 14 to be their flagship (despite their claims). So as the game got older and they wanted subetely retire the game; they dumb it down so that anyone still playing or by chance any new comers could have instant success without much trial. This of course makes the journey much less rewarding and in the end most people will lose interest quickly. (think of how a guy typically reacts if the girl gives away the goods on the first night).

    So I ask. Is this what WoW is doing? Do they know their time is coming to an end (granted a much longer off end than say FF11) and they are ultimately trying to get as much mileage out of their flagship as possible? If so how much longer will the bunch that enjoys the harder aspect of the game stick around?
  9. Khrash's Avatar
    I have no idea if this is much help for Druids, but it does look like they are going to do something:
  10. Kulldam's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Khrash
    Even running possible scenario numbers (as opposed to real world ) the Bear/DK tanks are under performing when compared to the Block counter parts in the Warrior/Paladin. Since the numbers jump out so obviously its a wonder they haven't fixed it yet or at least addressed it with the community.
    Similar to how players might compare risk versus reward, certainly a similar consideration is made when devoting development time: "How much of a benefit to our game and players will a particular change provide?" Again, because I think the tank discrepancy is not known or noticed by a large portion of the playerbase, it likely isn't high up on the to-do list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khrash
    Oh, and when/if they do recognize it Ill bet you they just nerf block.
    I fear the same thing, but hopefully recognition would be made that this only serves to bring everyone down to mediocrity rather than raise others.

    One aspect that I feel warrants consideration, and may be the saving grace for Non-Shield Tanks, is that once the masses move onto Firelands in 4.2, this issue should be pretty noticeable in Normal mode content, and thus may get the feedback it deserves. I suspect with the average iLevel jump in Normal Mode Raider gearsets, the damage output of bosses will also consequently be raised, and thus Non-Shield Block mechanics will quickly fall behind, as they simply cannot scale fast enough without a huge boost in the Vengeance cap and/or Savage Defense-type limiters. If Normal bosses in 4.2 hit for 45k+, the majority will experience these issues first-hand, so that's my hope for now.
  11. Khrash's Avatar
    Oh, and when/if they do recognize it Ill bet you they just nerf block.
  12. Khrash's Avatar
    Even running possible scenario numbers (as opposed to real world ) the Bear/DK tanks are under performing when compared to the Block counter parts in the Warrior/Paladin. Since the numbers jump out so obviously its a wonder they haven't fixed it yet or at least addressed it with the community.

    It's sad that its going to take a larger portion of the community to begin to recognize this issue before we can hope they fix it/address it.
  13. Kulldam's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Khrash
    Let's assume for a moment the Dev's are as smart (smarter?) then you. Lets assume they know the above. Now the question is: Why do they allow this broad gap to exist?
    As I sort of eluded to, my suspicion is that the Devs, in some respects, are only as observant as their data allows them to be. We all know from Blizzard's own mouth numerous times that they monitor constantly updated game data that reflects what is happening on live servers, so they can quickly see: Paladin tanks on Nefarian are taking X DPS and Druid tanks are taking Y DPS. However, that data only reflects the reality of what is put in practice, not the could be.

    Therefore, as mentioned in my write-up, when 95% of Nefarian Phase 3 add tanks are Warriors or Paladins, the actual reflective data about Druids or Death Knights is so minuscule as to be statistically insignificant. It would be difficult (and in fact, unwarranted) to draw conclusions about tanking scenarios that are rarely found in practice, and since Non-Shield Tanks are rarely put in those situations on difficult Heroic encounters, no real call for change occurs.

    I completely agree that Blizzard Devs are smarter than me, and I fully believe they would (or do) recognize this issue, but there's a big leap between recognizing an issue and wanting to fix it. As mentioned, the vast majority of tanks are not doing anything remotely challenging and are still trying to progress through Normals. Think of the days of ICC, when so many random Guilds came out of the woodwork and felt so powerful because they "progressed" through Normal ICC, never really acknowledging the 30% buff was the key to success. Nowadays, those same Guilds are stuck at 4/12 in Normal, and stuff is slow going. According to the latest progress numbers, only about 8500 Guilds have defeated Normal Nefarian, compared to 43000 of Magmaw, and the numbers drop off even faster going into Heroics.

    Not to suggest I'm the best player in the world, but certainly we are experiencing content the majority of the Raiding playerbase is not, so if your Guild is stuck on Normal Maloriak or Normal Atramedes, then it absolutely doesn't matter what your tank composition is: The damage differences are minor for Normals and, as I mentioned in my writeup, simply changing the obvious mistakes in the raid and perhaps gearing up a bit more will give you victory. As the numbers illustrate, in low-damage, single-target scenarios (Normal Halfus Drake was the example in the post), Druid tanks are as good or better given the right circumstance, because their absorb can be a greater percentage of the incoming attack than a Shield Tank would mitigate.

    On the other hand, it doesn't take a brain trust, from Blizzard or otherwise, to quickly see that in a scenario like Heroic Chimaeron, where a single-Break Double Attack can be 140,000x2, that surviving with a paltry ~15,000 absorb/block without a major cooldown is pretty futile and luck of the draw for a Druid, whereas a Paladin would mitigate 40% of that, baseline, dropping it to 84,000x2, a number easily survivable for a full-health tank without cooldowns.

    This brings up another topic somewhat related, which I tried to avoid in the writeup specifically, but is worth mentioning here when discussing reasons why this disparity might exist or why it isn't noticed: Cooldowns. In the above scenario, many, many people will see the Druid tank get creamed and immediately say, "Well you need cooldowns to survive, that's the design of the fight." While I agree with the latter portion, that the design is likely meant to utilize cooldowns there, that statement is very misleading and redirects the focus away from the actual issue at hand. Instead of focusing on the tank disparity that is clearly made apparent by that fight, the playerbase may, as a whole, focus the discussion on cooldowns instead. Don't get me wrong, both of those topics are very important discussions that should be addressed, but one should not be ignored in favor of the other. If you fix one but leave the other as it stands, balance can't be created in the slightest.

    So again, going back to to the idea that Blizzard can only fix what they see as an issue, the relatively few raids they have data from for something like Heroic Chimaeron are far more likely to take the easy route when presented with this issue, of swapping classes that simplify the fight, rather than actually fight to get the issue addressed (and World of Logs records suggest this practice of utilizing the better tanks is the norm, not the exception). I nearly did the same thing, even after being so burned out on Warrior tanking, by switching back to the Warrior because being a Druid tank was, without a doubt, hindering the Guild's progress in many situations. It is a sad state when completely changing one's class seems like the easier option, but many raids, especially high-end raids that have access to a larger roster, are likely to do just that -- They'll use Warrior and Paladin tanks on Chimaeron because it's easy to quickly notice how advantageous they are. And when, in rare situations, those tanks simply aren't available, they will use massive cooldowns (Priest & Pal primarily) and chalk it up to encounter design, rather than notice or focus on the true issue.

    Finally, another reason perhaps this issue isn't as noticed by the playerbase as a whole (and thus by Blizzard), is that many lower-tier players especially, may not gear their characters ideally to maximize their role. As a Shield Tank, to maximize physical mitigation, this basically comes down to one thing: Mastery stacking. Yet those Guilds progressing on 5/12 Normal may have tanks that do not recognize, or perhaps care, about this concept and may be stuck in the old ways of stuff like STA or Avoidance stacking. So, in those situations, a Druid tank will absolutely outperform their Shield Tank counterpart, because the primary stat for a Druid in Agility, directly increases their best method of avoidance and mitigation through Dodge as well as attack power to assist in Savage Defense. This was no different for Vox either -- when we were first doing raids, except in extreme cases such as Maloriak or Nefarian, on single-target bosses, I was taking lower overall damage than our Paladin tank, because early on, all my gear was contributing directly to my best mitigation as a Druid, whereas our Paladin's gear was not.

    Unfortunately, this issue of gear only hides and masks the problem, since as mentioned, it will not appear until the higher tier of encounters when bosses hit for 50k rather than 20k. I hope this issue is addressed, but as mentioned, I see no indication at present that it is even viewed as an issue by Blizzard.
  14. Khrash's Avatar
    Excellent writeup Kull. Having never played a Druid I knew/know nothing of there mechanics. You outlined it quite nicely here. As numbers dont lie its pretty obvious Blizzard Dev's have something very severely broken.

    Let's assume for a moment the Dev's are as smart (smarter?) then you. Lets assume they know the above. Now the question is: Why do they allow this broad gap to exist?
  15. Vikrum's Avatar
    Great read. Just read through it for the second time.

    Couple of questions.

    1. If one has vacation days saved up what days should one take off. Wed-Friday? Or will these most likely be days of unplayability due to bugs/issues. I luckily own my own business and can take whatever days I choose; however I hate to miss work very often and want to choose the best days.

    2. Are Heirlooms going to work?

    3. From MMO forums post: "It's up to you really but the Hyjal starting zone is said to be much easier/faster then Vashj'ir for questing." Truth?

    4. How will Looking for Dungeon factor into leveling? Will it be faster than quest/grinding? (doubtful)

    5. Does having 25 quests ready to turn in on day of release actually work?

    If I think of anymore I will edit this post.
  16. Bunny's Avatar
    Good job Kull.

    This same problem has presented in all three 10 man guilds I have been in, and for the previous two, it meant the death of the guild. Both previous went by the "solid state" system and both inevitably crumbled under the stress of schedule changes and loss of interest at a hurdle.

    I know for myself, I think of raiding as a part time job, and even when I don't want to, I show up and play. Sometimes I whine and bitch but I try to give my best anyway. I plan my RL social commitments around raiding, it's that much of a responsibility to me.

    Other people think of raiding as "just a game" and so feel no guilt for breaking a commitment or drinking to excess while playing or screwing around or whatever - they don't take it too seriously and that's where their enjoyment stems from.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with either perspective (because WoW IS just a game and so should be used to give joy in whatever way the user sees fit), but these different feelings about raiding certainly make it hard to maintain a guild, especially a small one where we don't have an ample pool of replacements in both attitudes to choose from.

    And of course all of us fall prey to RL obligations such as paying bills and caring for family, I hope that in Cata we are able to build a larger roster to draw from, for that reason and also for the social aspects, and in the interest of promoting guild leveling.
  17. Dux's Avatar
  18. Khrash's Avatar
    That was a great read man. Insightful and intelligent.

    It is difficult to fault our logic in building our raid around Solid State. It does work perfectly and smoothly when we are all giving 100% of our time and effort, but alas, real life does catch up eventually or something in life changes that precludes participation in Solid-State. Myself and Katheon are the prime example. New jobs with schedule conflicts... sucks. It hurts the guilds momentum and morale.

    There is no easy answer. People come and people go. I suppose its just built in to the system that this is the way of things. Guilds move forward 5 steps with Raid_Makeup_0098 then move backwards 3 steps because of a loss of a member or 2. Morale dips and time wasted looking for new members. Soon you recruit your 2 new members and take another 5 steps forward... rinse/repeat.

    I know from my perspective I have tried my damndest to give 100% to the guild and my friends, but after 6+ years in the game and a previous 5.5 years in Everquest my interest begins to wax and wane here and there. Currently Im in a wane stage. It is more then likely just the H-LK encounter. Our failures far outweigh our successes in that encounter. Sometimes I wish we could stack a raid! hehe

    Anyways, that was a great read man.
  19. Grymauch's Avatar
    Hah, looks like the latest raid lock announcement ( eliminates the possibility for 25man guilds to do what was suggested in my last post. I see 10man becoming the true progression battleground. Every progression-minded 25man guild will throw their best 10 players against guilds like ours in a race for Realm Firsts. Once the Realm First is taken, then they'll drop back to 25man for farming gear.
  20. Kulldam's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dux
    Heh, I was just logging in to post an update about that!

    Very cool that Blizzard was reasoned with and decided to go for 8/25 requirement in all old-world 25 achievements, but leave current content 25-man achievements as 20/25.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mumper
    We just made a change to all of the old 25 player raids that allows guild achievements to be completed as if they were a 10 player raid. This means you will only need 8/10 instead of 20/25.

    Get hyped. =)
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