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Thread: Heroic Lich King Strategy Notepad

  1. #21

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    My worry with Khrash tanking LK and Horror: There seems to always be someone next to/in front of khrash on the traveling line, in which case the horror's shockwave will destroy that person.

    Or if a trap comes down, and Khrash start running out, people are running after him, and Horror decides to cast Enrage(thus falling behind the group) then Shockwave toward Khrash, that'll definitely kill off most of the people.

    And you might need to get a ghoul after the 2nd horror die, just to give it back a stack it WILL lose from bouncing between you/kath(so if 3rd Horror shows up, the plague will still have enough stacks to kill it).

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rofldat View Post
    My worry with Khrash tanking LK and Horror: There seems to always be someone next to/in front of khrash on the traveling line, in which case the horror's shockwave will destroy that person.

    Or if a trap comes down, and Khrash start running out, people are running after him, and Horror decides to cast Enrage(thus falling behind the group) then Shockwave toward Khrash, that'll definitely kill off most of the people.
    Well it will only be the melee DPS that are near him, and I don't see why it would be hard for you three to always ensure you are behind the Horror. Moreover, as mentioned above, we need a few DPS on the initial Ghoul spawns and I think my suggestion of Rofl and Thaw as those two DPS is ideal since you both have the strongest miscellaneous AE damage. Therefore, the only person in melee range with Khrash near the Horror is Katheon, and he's actually attacking the Horror anyway due to Enrage, so there's no reason he'd be in front.

    Thing thing to keep in mind with this strategy is Khrash would only be tanking the Horror from the time it spawns until the time the third ghoul is about to get plagued, which if done properly, is only about 20-25 seconds: First Plague goes out 10 sec after Horror spawns, 2-3 sec later is dispel onto Ghoul, 5 sec later first Ghoul dies+bounce, 5 sec after that, second Ghoul dies+bounce, and now I've taunted the Horror as third Ghoul is getting Plague -- 22-25 seconds at most.

    If, for whatever reason, it absolutely doesn't work to have Khrash tank the Horror for that time, we can likely just have Thaw & Rofl "tank" the first three Ghouls until the third Plague is about to hit, then transfer that Plague to the Horror. We even have Death Grip for a quick Ghoul movement if needed.

    Or, another option is simply have me on both Horror and Ghouls and we can try to use smart snares/stuns/taunts from Rofl/Thaw to separate the Ghouls from the Horror when needed. I dunno about this one, it seems like it would be very convoluted and difficult to repeat in practice, but something to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rofldat View Post
    And you might need to get a ghoul after the 2nd horror die, just to give it back a stack it WILL lose from bouncing between you/kath(so if 3rd Horror shows up, the plague will still have enough stacks to kill it).
    Yes, of course we'll use Ghouls after Horror #2 -- that was just left out of the tables since it doesn't matter, the point was to find a safe way to manage Horrors during the transition between Horror #1 and #2.
    Last edited by Kulldam; 05-07-2010 at 11:21 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulldam View Post
    Well it will only be the melee DPS that are near him, and I don't see why it would be hard for you three to always ensure you are behind the Horror. Moreover, as mentioned above, we need a few DPS on the initial Ghoul spawns and I think my suggestion of Rofl and Thaw as those two DPS is ideal since you both have the strongest miscellaneous AE damage. Therefore, the only person in melee range with Khrash near the Horror is Katheon, and he's actually attacking the Horror anyway due to Enrage, so there's no reason he'd be in front.
    I'd like to point out you seems to have forgotten Ugra's existence yet again.

    If, for whatever reason, it absolutely doesn't work to have Khrash tank the Horror for that time, we can likely just have Thaw & Rofl "tank" the first three Ghouls until the third Plague is about to hit, then transfer that Plague to the Horror. We even have Death Grip for a quick Ghoul movement if needed.
    It'd actually be easily done, once the ghouls spawn I can turn on Frost Presence, pestilence and DnD to get the ghouls on me, if Thaw Holy Wrath here to keep the ghouls in place and Khash move away I should easily get the aggro onto me.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rofldat View Post
    I'd like to point out you seems to have forgotten Ugra's existence yet again.
    Haha woops! Right you are ><

    Quote Originally Posted by Rofldat View Post
    It'd actually be easily done, once the ghouls spawn I can turn on Frost Presence, pestilence and DnD to get the ghouls on me, if Thaw Holy Wrath here to keep the ghouls in place and Khash move away I should easily get the aggro onto me.
    The only concern is it will make the first (and perhaps the second) Infest much harder for Fides to manage, but if we can work that out (perhaps as simple as having Gale throw a few chain heals around when LK casts Infest would suffice), than this option would by far be the safest method and easiest to consistently repeat.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulldam View Post
    The only concern is it will make the first (and perhaps the second) Infest much harder for Fides to manage, but if we can work that out (perhaps as simple as having Gale throw a few chain heals around when LK casts Infest would suffice), than this option would by far be the safest method and easiest to consistently repeat.
    I've often have 1-2 ghouls on me later into p1, because when Khrash moves the ghouls will move out of his consecrate, but still take damage from my diseases, so even tually they get stuck on me. So this'll simply be something along that line earlier(though with the extra armor from frost presence, it might be less painful to heal me)

    One way I can think of to reduce the pain on the healers is to put you me and khrash on the same group, and after fides put his shields on other people, he can time his Prayer of Healing as LK's casting Infest, so after the infest hit it should heal all 3 of us, that combined with Kheelan's ticking HoTs might suffice.

    And I can save AMS to soak one Infest while tanking the ghoul.

  6. #26

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    Phase 2 Valk snaring shouldnt be much of a problem I'm going to attempt mutilate spec for it. Ive spec into deadly brew which is 100% chance to apply crippling poison anytime I apply instant or deadly poison to a target so now kull can kite horrors without my dazing them from attacks cause anesthetic poison does not cause the deadly brew proc so 2 problems gone there I hope but figured I would throw this out there. Did VOA in this build today 8.6k single target so should be higher on LK Im hoping.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katheon View Post
    Phase 2 Valk snaring shouldnt be much of a problem I'm going to attempt mutilate spec for it. Ive spec into deadly brew which is 100% chance to apply crippling poison anytime I apply instant or deadly poison to a target so now kull can kite horrors without my dazing them from attacks cause anesthetic poison does not cause the deadly brew proc so 2 problems gone there I hope but figured I would throw this out there. Did VOA in this build today 8.6k single target so should be higher on LK Im hoping.
    What's this "Mutilate" you speak of?

  8. #28

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    QUIET its blasphemy I know I was drunk Ill say.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katheon View Post
    Phase 2 Valk snaring shouldnt be much of a problem I'm going to attempt mutilate spec for it.
    Mutiwhat?!? Are you sure you are still a rogue?

    Seriously though, I am looking forward to the change so I can see how the build stacks up. Gratz!

  10. #30

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    Topic 1: Katheon's Combat vs Mutilate

    After talking to Kath for a bit, decided to look deeper into the numbers gained/lost by losing the 4% Physical Damage boost from Kath's Savage Combat talent while he's Mutilate. I got the following numbers by looking at damage dealt to Lich King only during our most recent raid night. I then applied the 4% boost Savage Combat would give to all physical attacks to see what the talent would give us in total. The table is long but seen below:


    This isn't a fully accurate representation of the talent's benefit since the DPS numbers in particular are skewed lower than they would actually be in-game due to combat log continuing even during wipes and such. To that end, I looked at just Phase 1 of the fight to get the actual DPS row numbers (again, damage to Lich King only). Looking at that, we can therefore conclude Savage Combat adds about 366 Raid DPS.

    So this leaves the question really of: What DPS and beneficial gain does Mutilate give over combat and no Savage Combat debuff?

    For Kath's personal DPS, again I split up the logs showing all damage for all HLK wipes for two nights.

    This log is Combat Spec: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...pes&boss=36597
    This log is Mutilate Spec: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...pes&boss=36597

    Now, based on nothing else, that shows Katheon at about 420 DPS higher when in Mutilate over Combat. However, due to any number of factors, everyone in the second log has quite a bit higher DPS. This could be due to better gear a week later, better strategy, and of course just more practiced and better play after getting used to things.

    Therefore, it's difficult to accurately say that Kath's spec choice was a primary factor in his own 420 DPS gain. More than likely, I'd say the actual DPS numbers were equivalent given everyone else's DPS gains between logs (Rofl 500, Thaw 500, Gale 1000, Kil 600, etc.).

    Having said all that, if I had to guess, I'd say, at least for Phase 1 & Phase 2 of this fight using our current strategy (which we won't be changing anytime soon), Combat is likely higher overall Raid DPS versus Mutilate.

    Unfortunately there isn't enough data for damage on Val'kyr to see the differences there, but it would be my guess, based on how often target swaps occur between LK and Val'kyr, that the ramp-up requirement of Mutilate would be too high and Combat would allow for better burst damage.

    The daze effect from the Combat DPS talent seems irrelevant now that we're killing the first Horror usually within 5-10 seconds of the second Horror spawning, which means I rarely have a kite, and when I do I'm using Piercing Howl anyway, which would already daze both Horrors on purpose. Further, Phase 2 Val'kyr snaring only require a weapon swap + Shiv as Kath mentioned, and since we have Ugra and Kath both snaring, plus me helping once Raging Spirits are down, I don't foresee that as a huge personal DPS loss for Kath.



    Topic 2: Resisting Necrotic Plague

    I tallied up our total dispel casts for Necrotic Plague over all LK attempts and got the following:

    Total dispel casts: 785
    Total failures: 10

    This gives us about a 1.27% failure chance historically; it just so happens we saw three in our attempts tonight (keeping in mind that was 27ish attempts total, so a large pool).

    It's also worth noting that the VAST majority of these were cast by Fides (97.3%), who has no Hit Rating to speak of. However, as mentioned in Mumble, Thaw has about 10% spell hit, therefore we can conclude that if spell hit actually applied to lower this miss rate, Thaw would be well over the cap with that 10% added.

    Furthermore, since the failure rate of 1.27% is statistically fairly close to 1%, I'd say it's safe to assume the common rule of "1% chance to miss" applies here. Also for those curious, no the target of the Necrotic Plague does not factor into whether a resist occurs.

    Where does that leave us? Given that 1%, or even 1.27%, is such a low chance of occurrence, AND it only happens in Phase 1 (so a death/wipe isn't a huge deal), I'd actually lean towards ignoring it and sticking with a single dispeller (Thaw), rather than use two and mess with needing two people to be responsible for it. All things being equal, if we are playing properly, we should be able to Battle Res anyone that does happen to die from it with such a low chance. We'll still have Gale setup his Grid/PowerAuras so he can help if we later decide to change it or have two people help, but ideally we want to stick with someone other than Fides so he can focus entirely on healing and Infest, which is still a fairly big factor in wipes.

    Other thoughts are welcome, but that's my own opinion on the matter, as fucking retarded as it is to have to deal with.



    Topic 3: Rofl-tank Strategy vs. Phase 1 Duration

    This is mostly for Katheon, but I figured out the total duration of Phase 1 before going into transitional phase for our most recent raids to compare the difference in kill time with Kath's spec and our new first-three Ghoul strategy.


    We can see that (obviously) our new Ghoul strategy where Thaw and Rofl spend a good chunk of the opening not attacking LK increases the time of Phase 1 by about 20 seconds. However, we're still fairly consistent now that we're getting used to it (seriously, three different attempts each with a Phase 1 of exactly 3:17 is pretty crazy). Also, it appears there is really no statistical difference of our overall Phase 1 duration between Combat spec vs. Mutilate spec, at least with this small sample we have available.

    Therefore, given that we're not going to change our Ghoul/Horror strategy anytime soon as it's working very well and Rofl/Thaw are perfecting it quite well and my survival is much better, I still contend as mentioned above, that Combat is likely the stronger spec for Phase 1 & Phase 2 of this fight in my opinion.

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