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Thread: 10man VS 25man Progression

  1. #1

    Default 10man VS 25man Progression

    I'm not sure if any of you have read this article but I found it very interesting in the apparent difficulty differences between 10 and 25.
    Look beyond what you see.

  2. #2


    Quote Originally Posted by Harkle View Post
    I'm not sure if any of you have read this article but I found it very interesting in the apparent difficulty differences between 10 and 25.
    While it's certainly interesting to look at, many people are interpreting this data as evidence of something that just isn't there -- correlation does not equal causation! That is to say, when people (like the article author) say...
    I find the higher ilevel for 10-man clears over 25-man to be very, very interesting indeed
    ...the implication is that the correlation between higher iLevel average in 10-man and lower iLevel in 25-man means 10-man is harder (because otherwise it would be accomplished sooner, with worse gear, than 25-man). That is absolutely not proof of the cause.

    Instead, it's entirely possible (and likely) that the reason 10-man clears are higher iLevel is simply because of selection bias among those that participate in 10-mans. If Vox was a 100-man Guild, for example, and we had a 25-man raid force but also people who liked 10-man, which raid is likely to be more active, just by pure expectation of availability and interest? Certainly the 10-man. Moreover, if you were the raid leader for a 10-man raid, you're likely to pick the more experienced players and the ones with better gear, rather than those that put in a bit less time and have a bit worse gear.

    Let us also not forget that even in 25-man raiding guilds, there is a strong tendency right now to "learn" stuff on 10-man first, again because of availability and simplicity to setup, before doing it on 25-man. This further emphasizes that gear of the smaller sample of 10 players will grow at a faster rate than that of the larger 25 players as a whole.

    I think simply looking at gear levels is near impossible to make any valid claims about relative difficulty. However, we can fairly safely assume, as we did in the past but always on deaf ears of course, that 25-man raids (and 40-man before them), have more room for individual margin of error than their 10-man counterpart. There are certainly exceptions, but by and large, if 1 person out of 25 screws something up, it is less noticeable than if 1 person in 10 screws that same thing up. I doubt Cata has changed that dynamic, and these numbers could simply show that indication, that 25-man kills come faster for lesser-geared groups because of a larger margin for error.

  3. #3


    I completely agree kull =)
    Look beyond what you see.

  4. #4
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    wowinsider is basically a shit pile, anyway. =P

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