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Thread: Throne of the Four Winds Strategy Notepad

  1. #1

    Default Throne of the Four Winds Strategy Notepad

    Note for Heroic: Conclave of Winds

    An extremely brief note I ran across that I wanted to write down: apparently Frost Mages perform exceptionally well on Rohash for this fight due to potential burst damage of Deep Freeze. I don't expect this fight to be on our Heroic radar for a while when there are certainly far easier fights from what I can tell, but worth noting I thought. Not sure what Deep Freeze can be guaranteed to hit for but maybe Kil can chime in here.

  2. #2

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    I watched a few videos from the Rohash platform PoV. For starters: What Kull said. A frost mage seemed to pop the shield almost instantly (the only other DPS with him was an assassination rogue). What really interested me, however, was the videos I saw where the ranged were on Anshal and the melee were on Rohash.

    Yes, meleeing Rohash requires some tornado dodging, but it didn't look terribly difficult from the videos (he has a decent hit box and the tornadoes don't move super quickly). In addition, our particular two melee both have good defensive cooldowns on short timers that would be up every time the Storm Shield is active. It's still very important to have good burst DPS to pop the shield, but this would help with healing considerably.

    For Anshal, I saw multiple videos where a mage cast Ring of Frost on top of the healer's position just before the adds spawned. The healer gets healing aggro on all of the adds, causing them to all run into the ring and freeze. Then, hunter frost trap and other snares are used to kill the adds at range, neutralizing the AoE from the adds completely.

  3. #3
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    From my perspective on Rohash, I do think that melee may be at an advantage on his wind blast ability if they are able to dodge the tornados. I know as a ranged dps, I had times where I was unable to avoid this effect. If I am on Heroic Rohash again, I will research and spec into reflecting blades if it will work on him, and thereby avoid the damage and break the shield at the same time. It probably doesn't work though.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulldam View Post
    Note for Heroic: Conclave of Winds

    An extremely brief note I ran across that I wanted to write down: apparently Frost Mages perform exceptionally well on Rohash for this fight due to potential burst damage of Deep Freeze. I don't expect this fight to be on our Heroic radar for a while when there are certainly far easier fights from what I can tell, but worth noting I thought. Not sure what Deep Freeze can be guaranteed to hit for but maybe Kil can chime in here.
    I was thinking about this on our attempts but I wasn't feeling well. My brain was hurting. But yes, Deep Freeze is the way to go. If I crit I can hit for 80k-100k with it.

  5. #5

    Default Conclave of Wind "Stay Chill" Achievement Strategy

    (I considered posting this in the main Conclave thread, but it ended up as such a big post, I didn't want to clog up the Heroic discussion. If Kull wants to move it into that thread to combine it, please feel free.)

    (Also, I apologize in advance for the size of this post, but it's a pretty crazy achievement.)

    I believe I have figured out how this achievement can be done, at least mathematically. As for how difficult certain points are, it will require some amount of experimentation on the fight itself to determine.

    To sum it up as basically as possible: We use four healers (assuming Boheem in this example). Everyone switches platforms after every Wind Chill application.

    To not sum it up at all:

    We discovered in our previous attempts that a player cannot maintain their Wind Chill stack if they are on a platform other than Nezir's when Sleet Storm ends. Even if Nezir casts Wind Chill very close to Sleet Storm (say, at 85 energy), you lose 5 seconds before Sleet Storm (and flying between platforms), 15+ during the ultimate cast, at least an additional 5 flying back to Nezir's platform (you will miss his first Wind Chill cast following Sleet Storm during this time), then land on Nezir's platform with between 5 and 10 seconds before he casts Wind Chill again. If the stars align, you may refresh the stack at the last moment, but it's much more likely to be off by 2-4 seconds (as it was the time we tried this method).

    In the kill that Kull recorded for the normal mode guide video, we finished the fight with four minutes left on the Berserk timer, and our DPS is likely better by now. This mean that, even using a fourth healer, we should have plenty of time to set the stage we need to finish the fight as I'll detail below. The difficulty/uncertainty is contained entirely in that last 90 second window.

    The set-up will require taking all three bosses as low health as possible:

    Rohash does not need to be tanked and does not heal, so he can be taken extremely low, potentially as low as 15k-20k health. I'll explain why this is important later.

    How low Nezir can be taken depends on if the tanks can keep him under control without damaging him, once the only threat is healing threat. If taunt won't cut it, here, then his health will need to be slightly higher (enough that a tank can land a few hits to stabalize him before the final push).

    Anshal is almost certain to be the most difficult part of this achievement. We still need to take him as low as possible, but since the final "phase" of the fight will begin right after his Zephyr finishes, he will have an additional 375,000 health above whatever the lowest we can manage to take him. He will very likely spend much more time healing on Soothing Breeze circles than normal, so using the (very limited) DPS time to overcome his recent healing will be the trickiest job to be done. I'll explain more about that later.

    Nezir's Wind Chill cooldown is technically 10 seconds, but he sometimes waits until 11 or even close to 12 seconds before casting it. Moreover, if he decides to cast Permafrost right before he would cast Wind Chill, it takes an additional 3 seconds for him to cast Wind Chill. Ultimately, that makes the time estimates even trickier, because we have to plan for having as little as 10 seconds between casts to keep the debuff rolling, but as much as few as 8 total casts to stack the debuff.

    When the fight begins, Nezir begins as though he just cast Wind Chill, and requires the full 10-13 seconds before his first cast. However, after Sleet Storm ends, he will immediately cast either Wind Chill or Permafrost followed by Wind Chill. Keeping all this in mind, the times below are estimates based on Nezir's average time between Wind Chill casts.

    I have also estimated the time between his Wind Chill cast and each group stepping onto the wind teleporter. We may be able to cut that time to less, but 3 seconds is already a pretty small window, so it seemed like a reasonable expectation. As the time calculation shows, there is very little room for error at any point during the entire 90 second phase.

    Keep in mind that exactly which tank or healer or DPS is on which platform is totally up to adjustment. I simply picked names and platforms based on our current normal mode arrangement. I could have written Tank 1, Healer 3, etc. but I figured this was less confusing. The important thing is the number of players/roles on each platform at each time.

    You will see that only three people are on Nezir's platform during the Sleet Storm, meaning each player will take 10,000DPS for 15 seconds. This will require a fair amount of healing, but it is necessary to allow for the required placement of each group to take maximum advantage of the available Wind Chill casts. Considering that these three people will consist of one tank and two healers, between tank cooldowns and some quick healing, it should be doable (the healing in heroic Halfus is much harder, for example). As long as all three survive until the end of the Sleet Storm (~60k healing on each within the 15 seconds), there will be time to heal them at a more standard pace later.

    Notes for the time tables:

    The starting point is immediately following an ultimate cast, with all three boses at their designated minimum health.
    The time it takes to travel between platforms is ~5 seconds from touching the wind to landing on the platform.
    Many of the tables are essentially redundant, but I wrote them all out to show the exact timing calculations used to reach the final conclusion. I apologize for the spamminess.

    Boss Energy = 2 (Wind Chill #1)

    Boss Energy = 5

    Boss Energy = 10

    Boss Energy = 14 (Wind Chill #2)

    Boss Energy = 17

    Boss Energy = 22

    Boss Energy = 26 (Wind Chill #3)

    Boss Energy = 29

    Boss Energy = 34 (Adds have spawned on Anshal's platform)

    Boss Energy = 38 (Wind Chill #4)

    Boss Energy = 41

    Boss Energy = 46

    Boss Energy = 50 (Wind Chill #5)

    Boss Energy = 53

    Boss Energy = 58

    Boss Energy = 62 (Wind Chill #6)

    Boss Energy = 65

    Boss Energy = 70 (Anshal/Rohash kill window begins)

    Boss Energy = 74 (Wind Chill #7)

    Boss Energy = 77 (Anshal/Rohash kill window ends) (Gathering Strength timer begins = ~58 seconds)

    Boss Energy = 82 (Gathering Strength = 53)

    Boss Energy = 86 (Wind Chill #8) (Gathering Strength = 49)

    Boss Energy = 90 (Sleet Storm begins) (Gathering Strength = 45)

    Boss Energy = 0 (Sleet Storm ends) (Gathering Strength = 30)

    Boss Energy = 2 (Wind Chill #9) (Gathering Strength = 28)

    Boss Energy = 14 (Wind Chill #10) (Gathering Strength = 16)

    Boss Energy = 26 (Wind Chill #10) (Nezir kill window begins) (Gathering Strength = 4)

    Boss Energy = 30 (Wind Chill #10) (Nezir kill window ends) (Gathering Strength = 0)

    END

    *Technically, three players will have one higher stack than the others, but only the lowest stack counts.

    Rohash should be very easy to deal with. Until the last moment when he needs to be killed, the two healers assigned to that platform will simply need to hop to Rohash's platform, spend ~7 seconds healing themselves, then switch back to Nezir, repeat. If his health is brought low enough in the earlier stage of the fight, the healer on his platform during the kill window (Boheem, in my example layout) should be able to kill him in just a couple casts. If there's concern that whatever healer is in this position can't kill him quickly enough, a ranged DPS could switch to Rohash during that last transition, but both the healer and the DPS would need to be able to cross Nezir's platform in under 7 seconds. It may turn out that I'm the best candidate to kill Rohash by using Lightning Bolts combined with a few seconds of DPS from the fire elemental.

    Nezir will be somewhat more challenging than Rohash, but it's difficult to say to what degree. Killing him in those last 4-5 seconds will certainly be a challenge, but since he doesn't heal, we should be able to carefully bring him very low during the time between Sleet Storm and the 7th Wind Chill, so that he only needs to be tapped to finish him off.

    The real difficulty with Nezir will likely come from having no way to avoid standing in Ice Patches. Once we begin switching platforms, Nezir will never move from the area right in front of the teleporter. With such a small window of time between each transition, there will be no time to move him away from that area, forcing as many as seven people to stand in the Ice Patch for 8 seconds, dealing between ~30,000 and ~40,000 damage to each person (depending on current Wind Chill stack). If Nezir immediately casts Permafrost when the group lands, this will be another ~40,000-~60,000 damage. Even this scenario can be healed through (since the Ice Patch damage takes a few seconds to all land), but it will not be easy.

    In addition, the Ice Patch slows movement speed, so if someone lands on the other side of an Ice Patch away from the teleporter, they will need to spend most/all of their time simply moving back to the teleporter.

    Anshal is obviously the biggest potential problem in this whole scenario. One of the reasons the main DPS team is on Anshal's platform during the ultimate (rather than soaking Nezir's Sleet Storm) is so they can continue DPSing Anshal to counter the Zephyr healing. It's difficult to determine exactly how much healing he will gain from Soothing Breeze during each phase, but if he stands in one the entire time between the points that the main DPS team is in position to attack him, it will require ~12,000 DPS from all five of the DPSers (Kull included) just to take back the health he gained during the swap. If each tank is able to move Anshal off the Soothing Breeze circle (within the ~8 second window of time he has on the platform), those missed healing ticks will add up to help quite a bit. How easy it will be for the tanks to move Anshal around is one of the unknowns until live attempts. In addition, players standing in the Soothing Breeze can't attack, so they will need to quickly find a place to stand that allows them to attack the boss, but doesn't prevent them from stepping into the wind teleporter at the proper time.

    The other big unknown on Anshal is his adds. On normal mode, even their explosion damage is not very taxing, and the debuff it leaves will have a chance to drop off when each group swaps. However, we don't know the behavior of the adds if everyone on the platform leaves while they are still alive. Do they evade? Stand there and wait for a new target like the boss? Grow wings and fly across to the other platform? Considering the adds will also likely end up in the Soothing Breeze, it is unlikely that there would be any chance for the DPS to kill them, due to the attention needed on the boss himself to counteract his own healing. It may be possible for the adds to simply be tanked each time a group lands, whether by a specific tank, or just by everyone eating the random damage.

    Finally, the most difficult part of DPSing on Anshal will be the final short window to finish him off (potentially when he's standing in a Soothing Breeze) before needing to transfer back to Nezir's platform. That 8 seconds can be pushed to maybe as high as 10, but with the slight randomness of Nezir's Wind Chill cast time, it could lead to landing on his platform immediately following the cast and losing the Wind Chill stack before the next cast. Obviously, Bloodlust will best be used here (rather than on Nezir at the end), and can in fact be used before the DPS group leaves Nezir's platform, so that it's already active when the group lands on Anshal's platform (since Bloodlust's 40 second duration will more than cover the trip between platforms and the short DPS window available).

    Several parts of this sound pretty difficult, and the whole thing requires extremely tight timing, repeatedly, from everyone in the raid (especially the DPS). If my numbers are off and it'll be easier, I'm all ears. I'd say there's a reason no guild in the world has completed this achievement yet. =)

  6. #6

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    Awesome writeup Duux, clearly you spent a lot of time with this and it shows! Nice work!

    You bring up a lot of good points about unknowns (adds' behavior, healing for Anshal, frost patches, etc.), but one thing I was trying to determine when we were making attempts is how to cross the barrier between ultimate abilities, such that some people can keep their stacks, because otherwise we get into a situation which you've sort of outlined, where we're trying to push everything into a very tight window, but from the timings we're seeing, I think I've found how we can cross over an ultimate, so the timings are slightly more forgiving. Otherwise, while your charts are somewhat overwhelming in data, I think you outlined pretty much a similar setup of two "teams" that swap positions. There's just too much minor detail in so many charts and it's difficult to tell how the timing works (even though I realize the energy level is the time elapsed). The system has to be logistically possible to follow, because otherwise that just looks like a 25+ step strategy that everyone has to memorize or perform accurately on their own, independent of the rest.

    While I have faith in everyone, even the best players wouldn't be able to handle that (at 2 energy I do this, but at 12 I do that, and at 15 I move here to prepare to do this other thing at 18) -- it would be impossible to follow precisely.

    That said, I think you outlined a lot of useful information that give us a good outline to what we can do. Here is the basic timing setup I came up with.


    These are exact timestamps from the logs of one of our kills, and as Duux outlined, the timing between Wind Chills can be quite varied (as high as 14 seconds during non-Ultimate windows). Because of this, the rotation must have people who are keeping their stack going pickup every other Wind Chill. In some cases, we could get away with every 3rd, as the casts are 10-11 sec apart, but it's clearly unreliable, so we must use a system that is reliable, and every other is that setup.

    Beyond that, the basic idea is that we can allow the kill window timings to be much more forgiving by spanning across an Ultimate cast early in the process. I trimmed earlier and later portions of the log, but the basic strategy should be fairly obvious from the above:

    Team A and Team B

    Each Team has 1 tank and 2 healers, but Team A has the majority if not all the DPS. This is because, after Team A gets Wind Chill #5 at returns to their respective Anshal/Rohash platform, that's when we kill them both. Based on the above timestamps, I suspect we can kill both within about 10-15 seconds of the #5 Wind Chill application. It should to be under 15-16 sec though to give enough time for Team A to return to the Nezir's platform before the second follow-up Wind Chill (#6 for Team A and #5 for Team B above).

    For the moment, we'll assume Roh/Ansh die at 10-12 seconds after Team A gets their #5 stack, which means the timestamp is approximately 22:01:13 from the above attempt. This then gives the raid until 22:02:13 to get everyone stacked to 7+ before we must finish Nezir, and as illustrated above, that's a margin of error of about 1 stack (or 11-14 seconds).

    So to reiterate the overall idea:

    As Duux pointed out, we get all Conclave members extremely low HP and once we're ready, we transfer the teams into start positions about 20 seconds before the Ultimate. This will put Team A (the larger team) with Nezir and Team B on Roh/Ansh during ultimates. Team A gets WC#1 on that final cast before the ultimate, then Team A also gets the follow-up WC#2 right after the Ultimate, then the transfer process begins.

    Team A splits to assigned Roh/Ansh platforms, and Team B comes to Nezir for WC#1. Now this process repeats; each team stays where they are until WC is cast, giving Teams ~11 seconds to transfer to the other platform, where they wait again for the next WC, then transfer back.

    Once Team A gets WC#5, the transfer occurs, and Team A kills Roh/Ansh asap, starting the timer and comes back to Nezir immediately. Now both Teams stay with Nezir the rest of the time, through the next ultimate (which means 5-6 stacks on everyone for ultimate, but 4 healers should be simple of course), carrying their stacks through the ultimate. At this point, it's just a matter of surviving until 7 stacks, then finishing off Nezir.

    Of course, as Duux mentioned, there are plenty of unknowns, which are really where things may be tricky. I'm specifically worried about adds, though I suppose as long as they don't somehow prevent using the teleporters, there's really no worry and we can take our time and use DoTs and single-target DPS to kill them off during the short bursts DPS are over there.

    I don't imagine tank threat on Nezir will be an issue, but we can obviously adjust as needed. We'll have a good 30-40 seconds of the entire raid with Nezir waiting for final WC stacks, so there's no reason we can't keep Nezir's health slightly higher during the transition phases to allow tanks to smack him a bit.

  7. #7

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    Hahah, yeah, I know the extensive charts looked overwhelming, but it wasn't supposed to be an exact set of instructions to follow, rather just showing the math I went through to determine if the entire process was possible at all. I shoulda been more clear about that.

    The adjustments you made sound generally good, though there are a couple things that concern me. However, for now, I think this is an excellent starting point and any further tweaking will best be left until after at least a couple test runs are in the bag (and some/all of these unknowns are solidified a bit).

    I would love to give this achievement some real attention on our next Conclave reset, but if I'm greatly outnumbered, I won't raise a stink about it hahah. World first sure would be swell!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    World first sure would be swell!
    Harkle?

  9. #9

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    Bah!! I'm not completely obsessed with world first/server first. I just think its an interesting fact/accomplishment when we do either of the two.
    Look beyond what you see.

  10. #10

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    I'd like to file a motion to rename Team A to Team Jacob, and Team B to Team Edward.

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